In the late 1960s, a wave of teachers from India introduced a young and open-minded gereration of Americans to yoga and meditation. Undergoing rigorously designed scientific tests, they demonstrated in the laboratory that yes, as the yogis of India's mountain recesss and forest hermitages have long claimed, yoga works wonders. Today hatha postures and meditation techniques are part of Western culture.

More recently, a second wave of teachers has brought over other Indian sciences, including Ayurveda (traditional Indian medicine) and Jyotish (Vedic astrology). Yet years before most of us even knew Jytoish existed, Hart de Fouw was exploring the Indian subcontinent, absorbing everything he could learn about its ancient astrological traditions. He spent 15 years apprenticed to a master jyotishi (Hindu astrologer), who initiated him in the inner workings of astrological science, passed down by word of mouth from teacher to disciple for millennia. The master put Hart through his paces, demanding that he memorize numerous Sanskrit texts, and testing his commitment to jyotir vidya ("the goddess/science of astrology") at every step.

Today Hart deFouw is one of the most accomplished Western-born jyotishis in the world. In addition to fielding a hugely successful astrological consulting business (there's a one-year waiting list for a first time reading with Hart), he spends over six months of each year on the road, teaching Vedic astrology. Best known for his co-authorship with Robert Svoboda of Light on Life: An Introduction to the Astrology of India and Light on Relationships: The Synastry of Indian Astrology, and his enormously popular seminars, Hart has recently added another major achievement to his resume: he has inaugurated a series of Vedic astrology training programs where students spend six week intervals immersing themselves in the authentic astrological tradition of India.

TMA: When you first arrived in India, what was your initial reaction to Vedic astrology?
HD: When North Americans travel to Europe or Australia some cultural adjustments or even cultural dislocations occur routinely; but when Westerners travel to India for the first time they usually experience culture shock. India is so diversified and so paradoxical that to speak of it in meaningful generalities is to seriously compromise the reality of Indian culture. This dilemma caused someone to describe India, it may have been the economist John Kenneth Galbraith, as "a functioning anarchy." As an intrinsic part of the very Indian culture that spawned it, I believe Jyotish to be a system of astrology that is broadly akin to a functioning anarchy.

These comments of mine do not mean that Jyotish is dysfunctional. I only intend to point out that Jyotish is exceedingly difficult to speak of in general terms as a cohesive "system" without doing it an injustice. Jyotish does have many well organized, elegant and insightful methods and traditions. The difficulty is that at their extreme the diverse methods and traditions are as different from each other as are English and Chinese.

TMA: What's it like to have an astrology reading in India?
HD: In India two years ago, I visited a particular nadi reader. A nadi reader is a practitioner of a unique but relatively widespread brand of Jyotish who has in his possession centuries old preserved leaves upon which have been inscribed many of the main destiny patterns of a consultant, usually in various older Indian regional languages. The information on the leaves is explicitly astrological. An astonishing fact to be emphasized about this nadi tradition is that the leaves and the information upon them are thought to have been created many centuries before the actual birth of the many people who consult these collections of horoscopes. According to the followers of the nadi tradition, the nadi reader simply finds the appropriate leaf and then reads the information found on the pertinent leaf.

The finding of the leaf (or series of leaves) with the appropriate information is done in a variety of ways. Some nadi readers take a thumb print of the consultant and based on the patterns of the thumb print are able to locate the corresponding leaf among several thousand. Other traditional practitioners measure the shadow of the consultant and then do a basic calculation to locate the correct leaf. There are several other methods as well.

My English speaking nadi reader measured my shadow on the balcony of his tenth floor Bombay apartment! It took him all of five minutes to locate my leaf and to launch into a matter of fact narration of many past, present and future details of my life. Most of the details of my known past were broadly correct, some exceptionally so. Year of marriage, number of children along with their age and their sex, my profession (yup, jyotishi!) and other known details were spot on. The reader's narration of the facts of my life to date went on for about a half an hour. Then he launched into the future, of which several explicit predictions have already come correct. Not one of this reader's findings involved an interpretation of the psychological nature of any planet in a particular sign of the zodiac as is typical in contemporary Western astrology.

He then described to me some salient details of my reincarnational past. He read from the leaves that I had been a very successful jyotishi in India during the British Raj where I was consulted by many maharajas and other well-placed people. Then I decided to go and proselytize on behalf of Jyotish in England only to die there unsuccessful in my mission of having the West recognize the wonders of Jyotish. Before my death in England, I apparently resolved to reincarnate in the West to complete my ambition. (Please remember that this is an account of the reading, not me baring my soul!)

An interesting coincidence pertinent to this segment of the reading was that for two consecutive years prior to this nadi reading I had gone to England by invitation to teach Jyotish with the most disappointing response of my entire professional life as a jyotishi. Planned seminars and lectures were canceled each time! Although private consultation were well attended, I would characterize these sessions in those two years as being adequate but also consistently amongst the weakest I have ever done. Why? Because I was constantly in an obsessive mode about my lack of understanding of the English character. My English friends who knew me in that period of time would readily agree. Since that time things have improved radically. Yet I do remember being filled with nothing short of dread the first time I stood up to teach Jyotish to the English at a series of well attended seminars last year. I have never experienced such a dreadfully powerful emotion anywhere else prior to lecturing or teaching.

The nadi reader concluded via the leaves that these events of my past life would lead to my contributing to the spread of Jyotish in the West through lectures in many countries and through the writing of several books. My nadi leaf also stated that I would visit India many times to re-establish my connections with the reincarnated form of my former Indian clients. (I lecture in several countries and I have invitations to lecture in many more. I am also privileged to have the association of many exceptionally well-placed Indians.) This particular nadi reader also informed me that this was my seventh life as a jyotishi, a statement that I have heard independently from other nadi readers before and since.

TMA: Did the nadi reader see anything strongly negative in your future? If so, how did he convey any potentially frightening information to you?
HD: Concerning some of the major difficulties in my chart, mostly about my potential for ill health, the nadi reader spoke freely. However, he also recommended some spiritual remedies in the form of mantras and simple rituals that involved compassionate service to key people in my life, as well as support of the creation through the feeding of groups of creatures such as categories of birds or ants at specific times. Even though his comments about my health invoked consideration of potentially seriously detrimental matters, the leaves did not alarm me. Instead they simply had the effect of a greater resolve on my part to be more vigilant about my health. A few months after the reading I went on a specific diet to tone up and have felt much better since. I should point out that I went to great lengths to assure myself that the nadi reader knew nothing about me and that the whole encounter was witnessed by two acquaintances who would agree that my account of the reading is accurate and even somewhat subdued.

Now here is an intriguing fact. When the nadi reader described the details of the planets in my horoscope, two of the planets were positioned incorrectly by sign and by house. I made note of this but did not interrupt his presentation, which proved to be very correct. I have had friends, students and clients report similar instances to me. Nadi readers have given them a startlingly accurate account of their lives from a horoscope that is only partially astronomically correct. I would like to reemphasize that this tradition of nadi Jyotish is readily available in different parts of India, but it is only fair to add that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find nadi readers who are a part of an unbroken and hence undiluted tradition with its accompanying accuracy.

I ask you and your readership: where can you go in the context of Western astrology to have an even remotely similar experience? Please don't misunderstand; the question is not a challenge. I simply put the question to emphasize the distinct differences between Jyotish and contemporary Western astrology. It is my way of welcoming Westerners to an extension of the experience of Indian culture shock. Remember that the reader was able to give me an astounding array of accurate and/or insightful information about my life from an astronomically incorrect horoscope! Such a nadi reader and many like him would even insist in a benign Indian sort of way that the astronomically incorrect horoscope is astrologically correct. Bear in mind that this is not only my unique experience. It is the experience of many others who have consulted an authentic nadi reader. Yet here in the West we are virtually obsessive about astronomical accuracy in astrology. Such nadi readers would presumably flunk our local battery of certification tests with their typical emphasis on astronomical accuracy.

Am I sensationalizing in presenting the previous story in answer to your questions? Partly yes, but with a purpose in mind. Sure, you can go to many astrologers in India (especially in the big cities now) who up to a point proceed in a manner that parallels the calculation and the interpretation of a horoscope here in the West. Then again you could end up getting your chart interpreted by a jyotishi in the Indian state of Kerala. Such a jyotishi would most likely work from a horoscope created based on the compass direction you occupy at the time of the encounter; or based on a gold coin that you place on an empty diagram of an Indian horoscope; or based on the part of the body you touch; or based on the sound of the first word uttered by you; or based on a myriad of other methods. These Keralite astrologers are famous for their unique methods throughout India. Broadly speaking, their methods are heavily contingent on an astrology that primarily values the moment of the encounter as opposed to the moment of birth in what we call horary astrology in the West. But the Keralite methods of horary differ radically from those of the West.

TMA: So having an astrological consultation in India is radically different from getting one here in the West!
HD: When someone asks me a question like how is a Jyotish reading different from a Western astrology reading or what is an Indian astrology reading like, I really become overwhelmed and do not know where to begin. The differences can be so immensely varied. Is the big city, modern and progressive Indian jyotishi with his or her emphasis on astronomical accuracy to be nominated as the archetype of the jyotishi? Or should we bestow this honor on the nadi reader? Or on the jyotishis of Kerala? Or on anyone of the several famous and widely followed innovators in this century who broke rank to add their own thoughts to the jyotishical traditions?

TMA: How are astrologers trained in India?
HD: For the very reasons I have already mentioned, we must realize that there is not a standard jyotishi training assembly line in India. I do think it reasonable to say that for the most part jyotishis learn their Jyotish through a sort of loosely organized apprenticeship from an elder or from someone more experienced. With salient exceptions, Jyotish in India is much less likely to be acquired from books to the degree that it is learnt from books in the West.

In some families and communities Jyotish is still an initiated tradition of formal apprenticeship. The student is initiated into spiritual practices to help build right attitude, understanding and intuition for the subject while concurrently being expected to simply memorize a formidable body of theory and facts. The instructor/initiator may be a senior family member who practices Jyotish or a guru who is found outside of the family system but who accepts the student for study.

Most of the large Indian cities now have astrological or cultural societies which offer a part-time course of study in Jyotish. The students convene in the evenings or on weekends to hear lectures on Jyotish. Although some such progressive societies even undertake research and have their students write a formal qualifying examination at the end of a course of study, such societies are usually loosely organized affairs catering more to the hobbyist's interest rather than to the training of professional jyotishis. One important exception is Benares Hindu University which offers a full-time four-year university degree in Jyotish.

TMA: Do astrologers in India have professional and ethical standards?
HD: Indian astrologers have created organizations to standardize and enforce ethics, but they have a very limited membership and a limited regulating effect in a functional astrological anarchy. However, because of the high regard that the vast majority of Indians have for true Jyotish, there is a self-regulating effect. An astrologer who becomes an unethical cheat will be quietly socially ostracized. My mentor used to say that a wise consultant will only consult an astrologer who has had a successful practice in their home town for three or more years and of whom people still speak well.

TMA: When we Westerners go looking for a Vedic astrologer, what qualities and qualifications should we seek out?
HD: What a jyotishi should be able to do in terms of technical astrological competence will of course vary from tradition to tradition. Perhaps more importantly, what a competent jyotishi should be able to do is to be a reasonably consistent skilled advisor. Competence as an advisor is the foremost quality that Westerners and Easterners should look for in a jyotishi. At times to be competent as an advisor and counselor may simply mean to have a practical knowledge of worldly matters. At other times it may require an ability to help generate change through an understanding of the psychological and spiritual dynamics of a person's horoscope. On yet other occasions, it may mean to be able to use the horoscope to attempt mundane predictions about career, finances, love or the like.

TMA: Please tell us something about your own astrology training with your Indian teacher. How were you able to integrate his Indian mindset with your own Western perspective?
HD: If you think my answer to the first series of questions was lengthy, this series of questions could turn into a book! Briefly, my training was in an initiated and oral tradition of apprenticeship. This meant that along with a strict requirement for the memorization of a large amount of astrological theory and facts, my mentor also instructed me in spiritual practices that continue to enhance my all too meager understanding of Jyotish. We would meet for hours on end in one to one sessions to discuss widely different aspects of Jyotish along with subjects closely allied to it. Both theory and practice were woven together in those many sessions which continued more or less uninterruptedly for fifteen years. As part of my apprenticeship, I was often asked to do various astrological calculations for my mentor. He often encouraged me to deal with consultants that he was too busy to see or perhaps disinclined to meet. I would freely say that he blessed me to pursue Jyotish with a reasonable degree of success.

As to integrating the Indian mindset with my Western point of view, all it takes is some healthy curiosity mixed with a reasonable degree of adaptability and a sense of humor. My innate love of paradox has helped immensely. Ultimately I believe we are all human beings first and Westerners or Easterners a distant second. When yet another nadi reader tells me of my multiple incarnations as a jyotishi, I have been known to quip, "Boy, am I ever stuck in a reincarnational rut!"

TMA: You give readings to clients in different cultures. Does an Indian client relate to an astrologer differently than Western clients do? Is it true that Indian culture in general has a far more positive attitude toward astrology than Western culture?
HD: Yes on both counts. Indian clients often expect their astrologer to be a paradoxical blend of spiritual, psychological and mundane advisor. They expect the jyotishi to be part religious advisor and part shaman. And when the situation warrants it, they expect the astrologer to be able to predict the outcome of important situations with a reasonable degree of accuracy. Most Indians in India and many Indians abroad either have an astrologer or at the very least have ready access to one when required.

TMA: A constant charge Vedic astrology students meet in the West is that Jyotish is "fatalistic." How do you respond to that?
HD: The inevitable and obligatory question! The charge is simply not true. It is of course mostly Indians who use Jyotish. Let me assure you that those very Indians are as capable of following or ignoring the advice of their jytoishi as is any free will oriented Westerner. The problem often lies in the way we frame the question: free will versus destiny, either/or. The truth lies somewhere in between. Although some details of some peoples lives can be readily predicted, all details of all peoples lives cannot be predicted. I have yet to meet a jyotishi who can predict everything. Even the formidable nadi tradition cannot predict every detail of a person's life. An authentic nadi reading simply happens to be fairly consistently accurate on the matters that they do touch upon. There are many themes important to a person's life that they do not comment on. On this point of fatalism in Jyotish, I believe the constant crowing (or whining, take your pick) on the part of "vedic" astrologers about their ability to make predictions has also perhaps added to the mistaken notion that fatalism is intrinsic to Jyotish. This attitude on the part of some jyotishis has perhaps alienated more Westerners than it has attracted, especially our fellow astrologers of the Western persuasion. Anybody with consistent experience in the field of making predictions and with a capacity to assimilate feedback will be compelled to admit that some things proved predictable while other matters were not predictable. Often the difference between the two lies in the gap between the theoretical potential of Jyotish and the reality of everyday Jyotish.

TMA: Many of us Vedic astrology students have been frustrated at how difficult it is to find qualified teachers here in North America. I hear you're trying to help solve that problem.
HD: At present I am heavily committed to the development of a comprehensive Jyotish curriculum. Our first Jyotish Foundation course happened in February/March of 1998. We anticipated a minimum enrollment of eight students and a maximum of eighteen. The number zoomed to thirty-six students who came from diverse places in North America. These were augmented by three students from Australia and one from Israel. Some commuted weekly from places like California and Texas. My plan is to go on to develop a number of specialty courses beyond the three core courses. These will include technical topics like prashna (horary astrology), ashtakavarga (a technical holistic method of chart analysis), Jaimini sutras (a unique tradition of Jyotish), nimitta (omens), upaya (remedies), pourutams (comparative relationship analysis), and the like. Students deeply interested in Indian studies can integrate their study of Jyotish with the very fine programs that the Ayurvedic Institute already runs in Ayurveda, Sanskrit and yoga. My method of instruction is a blend of East and West. The class chants some basic Sanskrit invocations to help create the right attitude, but we most emphatically are not trying to create more Hindus! My teaching is assisted by some relatively advanced students who are available for tutoring those who need assistance with some concepts. I expect the students to work diligently, but every effort is made to create a vehicle of study that supports and speeds the work. Humor, fun and inspiration are qualities that I aspire to always weave into every one of the courses.

TMA: Do you foresee a future for Jyotish in America?
HD: I believe Jyotish to have a very promising future in America. Judging by the escalating and unexpected response to my classes, seminars, lectures, writings and consultations, I think Jyotish is an idea whose time has come in the West. Naturally there will be some turbulence along the way while Jyotish acclimatizes to the needs and values of the West. My mentor told me in the mid-seventies that the then wave of Indian spirituality flooding the West would be followed by a second wave from India. This second wave would make available the classical technical subjects of India, subjects like Ayurveda, Indian dance and music, Sanskrit, yoga, mantras, and of course Jyotish. Given the current proliferation of Indian subjects, I am compelled to conclude yet again that my mentor was a true Indian seer indeed.